that wierd "morph"?

[Adam_Wysocki]

I think it said something about those Derma's being Het Pieds?

That would be because he bred the derma to a visible morph ... make sense?

Im not sure though. Im just saying, hes trying to pass them as het for a visual morh, but i know what yopu mean when the Derma ball could be a het of a Scale-less animal, not a scale-less animal thats het for a visual morph (Pied, clown, albino)

Well, "if" the derma is genetic (just like it is in every other species of reptile that has a scale-less reproducible mutation) and "if" the derma was bred to a female morph (like a pied, clown, or albino) ... "then" those babies would be "het" for the scale-less trait "as well as" het for the visible mutation that laid the clutch ... make sense?

If you have a good grip on genetics and reptiles in general I would hope that it's clear that Justin isn't trying to "pass off" anything.

For what it's worth, I'm personally not a fan of the derma ... but I am a fan of the truth.

-adam

[pslsnakes]

But how do you know the Derma IS genetic? When it was pretty much a flaw?

Just wondering.

[Adam_Wysocki]

But how do you know the Derma IS genetic? When it was pretty much a flaw?

Just wondering.

A flaw? Like what? Albinism? Axanthism? What you see as a flaw, some people see as beauty ... There are some people that feel that being a teenager is a "flaw" ... how does that make you feel? Why would you call it a “flaw” … have you even seen the animal in person?

The derma hasn't been proven to be genetic yet, but there is “precedent” (go ahead, look it up, I'll wait ) in other reptile species with scale-less specimens proving to be genetic ... so there is NO REASON to believe that the same won't hold true for the derma.

Just like when Bob Clark got in the first albino ball python ... he invested a lot of time and energy in proving it out because he had a strong feeling that it would be genetic ... that strong feeling was based on the fact that there was already albino corn snakes and albino burmese pythons that had proven to be genetic ... it's called precedent and it's a corner stone of scientific theory.

Just like the people that bought het pieds before Pete proved pieds to be genetic, people that buy het dermas are taking a chance ... but I know a couple of those original het pied customers of Petes personally and I'll tell you one thing ... They walk around with smiles from ear to ear ... I suspect that the first derma het customers will do the same one day.

-adam

[elevatethis]

For me personally, I'll weigh in on the derma ball issue with some time. I'm all for reproducing desireable traits that do not affect the overall well-being of the animal. So if the derma ball leads a normal life....I can't wait to see some scale-less killer bees!

I'm thinking it's going to be all good. People have been breeding scaleless snakes since before I was born, so we'll see what the future holds for that mutation!

[amercnwmn]

I think it's a matter of opinion, for sure. Some people might consider the pure white scales of a pied "flawed"...while most of us consider it beautiful. I don't care for the look of the derma-ball myself...not the least bit interested in owning one or even seeing one in person. However, I don't care if someone else gets excited about it. That's their business and more power to 'em.

HEAR HEAR!! Totally agree.

[MedusasOwl]

Wow, that's surreal... I think I'd have to experience one of those in person, I can't even imagine what it feels like or even would look like in motion just looking at the pic.

[engywook]

But how do you know the Derma IS genetic? When it was pretty much a flaw?

Just wondering.

I won't touch on the subject of genetics; Adam seems to have covered that quite well. However, your use of the word "flaw" is confusing...what exactly do you mean? You seem to be implying that there's something inherently wrong with the Derma simply because it lacks scales. As long as the snake is healthy, capable of hunting, shedding and reproducing, there's nothing "wrong" with it, however unattractive it may seem to anyone.

The idea that there's something 'wrong' with any given individual is rooted in "typological thinking" -- the view that there's a canonical individual of a species from which 'real' individuals differ to a greater or lesser extent. Biology no longer approaches issues from that viewpoint; for some time now, we've been working from "population thinking", which focuses on the variation in any given population of individuals, recognizing that "normal" is merely a statistical abstraction.

An analogy to the Derma might be red hair in humans, which is the result of a recessive mutation which disables a receptor molecule on the surface of pigment cells; in addition to causing red hair, it also leads to many of the characteristics we associate with redheads (lighter skin, freckles, suburns easily), as well as an increased sensitivity to UV light and (perhaps) a higher risk of melanoma. Are redheads "flawed"?

[xdeus]

An analogy to the Derma might be red hair in humans, which is the result of a recessive mutation which disables a receptor molecule on the surface of pigment cells; in addition to causing red hair, it also leads to many of the characteristics we associate with redheads (lighter skin, freckles, suburns easily), as well as an increased sensitivity to UV light and (perhaps) a higher risk of melanoma. Are redheads "flawed"?

I disagree with your analogy. The gene that enabled redheads developed in a region with very little sun and obviously the "flaw" wasn't enough to prevent the spread of that gene. Reptilian scales developed over millions of years and they serve an important purpose in the survival of all reptiles. Just because a couple have been found in nature doesn't necessarily mean they "thrive" or aren't needed for continuing survival. Two headed snakes have been found in nature as well as other genetic flaws that will probably hinder that individuals ability to survive for an extended period or at the very least prevent very many generations from perpetuating that gene. Nobody knows for certain, but I would be willing to bet that for every scaleless snake found in nature, there were dozens, hundreds, or even thousands that have perished.

As far as Justin and his Derma, I feel he is being dishonest by selling them as "hets" without first proving them. Sure, there might be a 99% chance that they are genetic, but until they are 100% proven, they shouldn't be labled as such. I find it interesting that many people were bashing the WC leucistic ball a couple months ago because it wasn't "proven", yet the Derma seems to be even more of a stretch genetically than that Leucistic. I have no problem with people gambling on these genetics, but they should keep their advertising honest.

[Ginevive]

I think that more studying needs to be done on this. Is it similar to hairless rats; I know that, across the board with rat breeders, it is well known that it's nearly impossible to breed hairlesses. They always either seem to eat the babies, or just not breed.
It reminds me of "rex" rats; they have some patches of hair but are largely hairless. True "hairlessness" this is not; the snake does have some scales. I am sorry, but it just seems like the owner is trying to create a bunch of hype and make money off of hets, when it hasn't been proven that this is genetic; what if it were somehow caused by unrest while developing in the egg, or a chemical exposure; who knows?

[Adam_Wysocki]

I am sorry, but it just seems like the owner is trying to create a bunch of hype and make money off of hets, when it hasn't been proven that this is genetic;

Yup. Just like every single other ball python mutation that was discovered and later proved out.

If you've been around long enough, you know that this is nothing new. If you think that this is something that hasn't been done before over and over again, you haven't been around long enough.

-adam