that wierd "morph"?

[Adam_Wysocki]

Reptilian scales developed over millions of years and they serve an important purpose in the survival of all reptiles. Just because a couple have been found in nature doesn't necessarily mean they "thrive" or aren't needed for continuing survival.

How can you say that the scale-less condition isn't just the next evolutionary step for snakes ... maybe "scales" are a "flaw" on the road to a better form?

Not an argument, just a thought.

-adam

[SnakeySnakeSnake]

Thats how a lot of people go about selling snakes... oh this looks like a ____ or it looks brand new and might be a new morph.... but I think in the case of the derma, with multiple babies being like that.... man, that is just something different. if it isnt genetic, Id like to know how it happend heh

[xdeus]

How can you say that the scale-less condition isn't just the next evolutionary step for snakes ... maybe "scales" are a "flaw" on the road to a better form?

Not an argument, just a thought.

Nah, if that were the case there would be at least one snake species that didn't have scales. Snakes developed in almost every continent in almost every climate, so if scales were useless or a hinderance you would think that there would be at least one species that would have done away with them. I wonder how many have been found in nature and how old those individuals were? Considering the protection they provide and the benefit towards mobility, I wouldn't think it would be very easy for those individuals to survive very long.

[xdeus]

but I think in the case of the derma, with multiple babies being like that.... man, that is just something different. if it isnt genetic, Id like to know how it happend heh

Actually he only has one Derma, the normal looking mother, and three of the sibs that he's selling as 66% Hets. I don't have a problem with people trying to make as much as possible on a new morph, but just prove them out first before slapping a Het label on them. However, at least he's guaranteeing them to prove out. BTW, does anyone know if he ever sold them? That ad is almost a year old.

[sweety314]

Yeah, that ad/thread is almost a y.o. and one of the loudest gripers is "Chris@TSE"...Did y'all catch that one?


Beauty may be in the eyes and all that, but I wouldn't invest any sort of "big bucks" until there's something a little more of the "proven" to the story............. Even if he breeds back and gets more & that proves the trait, then there's more of a bang there...more babies and now it's a proven trait (therefore) a higher price.

Personally? I wouldn't buy it. There are reasons why some traits are fatal & some aren't............................Just my

R.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Nah, if that were the case there would be at least one snake species that didn't have scales.

Maybe a million years from now there will be??

Evolution doesn't have a calendar ... maybe "scales" are just a "blip" on a much bigger timeline for snakes in their transition from lizards to "?????" .... If you look at snakes from an evolutionary standpoint of "not finished yet" ... who could possibly say what they will looking like in 3 million years?

Think bigger than the now.

-adam

[Adam_Wysocki]

I don't have a problem with people trying to make as much as possible on a new morph, but just prove them out first before slapping a Het label on them.

You do realize that Bob sold "het albinos" and "het stripes" before producing a single albino or stripe? And that Pete sold "het pieds" before producing a single pied as well? I could go on with other examples within ball pythons, boas, and other species where it's been done as well.

Same problem when the "big guys" do it? Or are you just uncomfortable because Justin isn't "known" to the ball python community outside of the higher circles?

-adam

[Adam_Wysocki]

There are reasons why some traits are fatal

Fatal? In ball pythons? Which traits?

FWIW, the derma is a VERY healthy little snake.

-adam

[sho220]

Interesting thread! And great points Adam...I think alot of us forget that these critters aren't quite done evolving, and maybe this is the direction they're heading???

[xdeus]

Maybe a million years from now there will be??

Evolution doesn't have a calendar ... maybe "scales" are just a "blip" on a much bigger timeline for snakes in their transition from lizards to "?????" .... If you look at snakes from an evolutionary standpoint of "not finished yet" ... who could possibly say what they will looking like in 3 million years?

I never look at evolution as being "finished" or "not finished". It's a dynamic process that is constantly changing. It's quite possible that one day there may be scaleless snakes or other reptiles, but there would have to be a need that would benefit the species. Even then, scales are such a huge part of the reptilian evolutionary process that I doubt if they would ever be eliminated. Look at mammals; every mammal on this planet has hair of some sort. There have been a few that got rid of most of them through evolution, but that pesky hair still lingers around. The only mammals that don't have hair are ones that have a genetic or physiological disorder.

You do realize that Bob sold "het albinos" and "het stripes" before producing a single albino or stripe? And that Pete sold "het pieds" before producing a single pied as well? I could go on with other examples within ball pythons, boas, and other species where it's been done as well.

Honestly, I don't care who it is. I believe anyone should be as accurate as possible when trying to sell something, especially for the amount of money that is being asked. However, I can see why the big breeders sold hets before proving out their particular lines: there were probably albinos, stripes, and pieds out there when they sold their snakes. Not only with Balls, but with other snakes that were proven to be genetic. I still don't agree with their labeling, but I suppose it's more excusable. With the Derma, however, it's the only one in existence. I have seen the other scaleless snakes, and the ones I've seen pictures of were completely scaleless. The Derma, however, has a number of scales that may indicate it was not a genetic anamoly that prevented scales from forming but perhaps a developmental problem that affected the production of scales. That fact alone should be enough to not label it genetic without proof.