baby ball python, please help.

[seercirra]

i cant believe this. i just wrote a huge piece describing everything. and when i went to post, it said i had signed out. and it lost it.

wtf!

one more time then, godamn it, excuse me for being a little direct, this is gonna be much shorter than the original.

new snake: ball python, great. gorgeous.

brought from tropicalfishworld.net.
although i went to the shop to pick it up.

this is my first snake, i really want to check everything is ok. the setup, snake itself, etc.

this setup is what the shop supplied me with. i know you cant always trust shops to know whats best - another reason im here.

tank is around 35x15x15.

1.5 inches of bark substrate.

under BARK (not tank) is a heat mat on left side of tank

temp of bark above heat mat is around 95degrees.
i use it at night time. ambient temp around that area is 77-80.

2 hides around heat mat area. one on it, one to the side.

water bowl in middle.

on right side of tank, big nice log hide (but small and compact inside)

above log, light.

light = too hot. ( i think) its too hot to touch.
i have light on during day, heat mat during night. temps directly under light register 110degrees.
on other side of tank, temps ambient 85degrees with light on.

humidity = 70% - but decreasing. the moisture from the new bark is being evaporated. im not sure how far the humidity will drop tho.

snake itself:

he's 95 gram at 1.5 months old.

has strike fed, so they say (and ive reason to believe)

extremely docile and scared.

he explored tank when i first put him in. i have taken him out a few times in the couple of days since (trying not to any more having read that its better to let them settle in new home). when i put him back in the tank, he doesnt move. staying in a ball for a long while. after that, he may then try to find a hide. and he's been in the one he's in for over 15 hours now.

- which makes me worried.

i just want to leave him be now and let him adapt. i had to get him out a few times because, for example, my first temp recording of the bark on top of heat mat was ~100 degree's. which i thought probably too high so i laid some cardboard ontop of the mat, and then replaced the bark, so that the bark temp is about 95 degrees instead.


basically, please let me know what i can do to make sure he's as happy as possible. im considering partitioning the tank so that he can only occupy half until he is bigger. - he hasnt explored it at all since i first got him in there. but please let me know. i will listen and make the changes i need to.

thanks alot.

[blackcrystal22]

Ok, I drew this a while back, and if you learn better with pictures this is useful. I can explain things better in picture form too.
This is a desired Ball Python enclosure for a tank.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...g?t=1244314426

i cant believe this. i just wrote a huge piece describing everything. and when i went to post, it said i had signed out. and it lost it.

wtf!

one more time then, godamn it, excuse me for being a little direct, this is gonna be much shorter than the original.

new snake: ball python, great. gorgeous.

brought from tropicalfishworld.net.
although i went to the shop to pick it up.

this is my first snake, i really want to check everything is ok. the setup, snake itself, etc.

this setup is what the shop supplied me with. i know you cant always trust shops to know whats best - another reason im here.

tank is around 35x15x15.

1.5 inches of bark substrate.

under BARK (not tank) is a heat mat on left side of tank

Ok, that's VERY bad.
Get the UTH outside of the enclosure, inside the tank it can cause DANGEROUS consequences. If water or deification were to hit the mat, then it would short out and heat up to high burning temperatures.

temp of bark above heat mat is around 95degrees.
i use it at night time. ambient temp around that area is 77-80.

You don't need a night-time drop. It should be the same temperature for the day and night for bps. Also, the temperature should be 95F directly on the glass above the UTH. If it's 95 above the substrate, that means it's approximately 100F on the glass which they often burrow down to, and that will burn the snake. You need a proper thermostat because UTHs will get much too hot without anything to control it. Also, get rid of any thermometers or hygrometers that are not digital, and get yourself some that are digital with probes.

2 hides around heat mat area. one on it, one to the side.

water bowl in middle.

on right side of tank, big nice log hide (but small and compact inside)

above log, light.

light = too hot. ( i think) its too hot to touch.
i have light on during day, heat mat during night. temps directly under light register 110degrees.
on other side of tank, temps ambient 85degrees with light on.

humidity = 70% - but decreasing. the moisture from the new bark is being evaporated. im not sure how far the humidity will drop tho.

Ok, put two identical hides in the cage, one on the warm side and one on the cool side. Get rid of the log hide, it is useless.
I also suggest ridding yourself of that lamp. Ball pythons do not need any sort of light or above temperatures. They will only suck out humidity and cause more problems for the cage and the animal.

snake itself:

he's 95 gram at 1.5 months old.

has strike fed, so they say (and ive reason to believe)

extremely docile and scared.

he explored tank when i first put him in. i have taken him out a few times in the couple of days since (trying not to any more having read that its better to let them settle in new home). when i put him back in the tank, he doesnt move. staying in a ball for a long while. after that, he may then try to find a hide. and he's been in the one he's in for over 15 hours now.

- which makes me worried.

Ball pythons are constantly hiding. Roaming is extremely stressed behavior. If he is hiding, that is very much of a good thing and means he is doing exactly what he is supposed to do.

i just want to leave him be now and let him adapt. i had to get him out a few times because, for example, my first temp recording of the bark on top of heat mat was ~100 degree's. which i thought probably too high so i laid some cardboard ontop of the mat, and then replaced the bark, so that the bark temp is about 95 degrees instead.

Remove that UTH until you get something to control it. It is getting far too hot and will burn your animal (he could easily burrow under the substrate or cardboard and get directly onto the UTH which seems like its reaching 100-110F which is extremely hot.)
You can get a proper thermostat here, but until then you can get an inexpensive lamp dimmer from a hardware store for the UTH.
http://www.reptilebasics.com/Thermostats-p-1-c-250.html

basically, please let me know what i can do to make sure he's as happy as possible. im considering partitioning the tank so that he can only occupy half until he is bigger. - he hasnt explored it at all since i first got him in there. but please let me know. i will listen and make the changes i need to.

thanks alot.

I can't really tell how large the tank is.. but I recommend for a baby that small a 10gallon tank. It sounds like that is more of a 20-30 gallon set-up which is very stressful for the hatchling. You could take a picture of the enclosure so we can help further.

[seercirra]

hi black crystal, thanks dude for your quick reply.

Ok, I drew this a while back, and if you learn better with pictures this is useful. I can explain things better in picture form too.
This is a desired Ball Python enclosure for a tank.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...g?t=1244314426

ok, thats pretty cool. mines fairly similar. although whats the problem with log hides?
this isnt a circular, hollow log i have. its looks more like its from the root mass of the tree. theres basically one small entrance from the ground and another from above. he has hid in it before. do you still think i should get rid of it?

Ok, that's VERY bad.
Get the UTH outside of the enclosure, inside the tank it can cause DANGEROUS consequences. If water or deification were to hit the mat, then it would short out and heat up to high burning temperatures.

ok thanks, i thought so, but wanted to check.
i tried to get the mat out, but i cant. infact i cant figure out how they got it in there, lol. theres a small hole feeding the wire through, but the hole isnt big enough for the mat O_o.
actually, thinking again, they mustve just seperated the plug from the wire. ill have a look and see if i can do the same.

You don't need a night-time drop. It should be the same temperature for the day and night for bps. Also, the temperature should be 95F directly on the glass above the UTH. If it's 95 above the substrate, that means it's approximately 100F on the glass which they often burrow down to, and that will burn the snake. You need a proper thermostat because UTHs will get much too hot without anything to control it. Also, get rid of any thermometers or hygrometers that are not digital, and get yourself some that are digital with probes.

ok, ive read conflicting advice regarding a night time drop and light cycle. some people say its necessary. some say irrelevant. yours agrees with my logic so ill go along with it.
maybe i was misleading when i said "tank". i dont know the correct terminology. its basically 5 sides wood and the front side glass. the wood is almost an inch thick. so i guess that wood would absorb more heat than standard glass. and so probably will be safe when placed under the box.

Ok, put two identical hides in the cage, one on the warm side and one on the cool side. Get rid of the log hide, it is useless.
I also suggest ridding yourself of that lamp. Ball pythons do not need any sort of light or above temperatures. They will only suck out humidity and cause more problems for the cage and the animal.

because its a big enclosure, ive put three hides in there. do you still think i should get rid of the log? it does offer a good hiding place, not just a hollowed out branch. as for getting rid of the lamp, agree'd. but... the idle air temp with just the heat mat on, is about 77degrees.
i guess that will drop considerably when the mat is placed under teh enclosure, so would you recommend fitting a low watt fluorescant light too? something like 20w i imagine would stable the temps at mid 80's.

Ball pythons are constantly hiding. Roaming is extremely stressed behavior. If he is hiding, that is very much of a good thing and means he is doing exactly what he is supposed to do.

ok, so actually, when i handle him and he constantly tries to explore, thats a bad thing? its actually a sign that it is happier if its just curled up? if thats the case then im quite pleased, as he never tried to slip away when i handled him.

it slithered in my pocket the other day, lol. searching for a dark place. he popped his head out when the rest of his body was inside, and just sat there for ages, looking like the cutest thing youve ever seen - basically until i put him back in the enclosure, lol.

Remove that UTH until you get something to control it. It is getting far too hot and will burn your animal (he could easily burrow under the substrate or cardboard and get directly onto the UTH which seems like its reaching 100-110F which is extremely hot.)
You can get a proper thermostat here, but until then you can get an inexpensive lamp dimmer from a hardware store for the UTH.
http://www.reptilebasics.com/Thermostats-p-1-c-250.html

ok, cool. ill pick up one of those lamp dimmers when i can. in the mean time, ive turned the 'UTH' off, until i get it out of the enclosure, and ive turned the light on. but ive put a cardboard partition up so the snake cant get to the light. the partition will also make him feel more secure, i hope. as his effective new enclosure is about 1.5ft x1 x1.
i am using a digital thermometer/humidity gauge. - it doesnt have prongs tho.

thanks again man and any other comments or suggestions from anyone are welcome.

edit: if its a sign that he is relaxed and happy, when i tried to remove the UTH earlier, i place him atop the enclosure, along with the water bowl while i was moving all the bark. rather than being scared he perused over to the bowl for a drink, lapped some up and then swaggered back to where he was and just waited, while i was working around him.

is that the behaviour of a happy snake? lol

[seercirra]

sorry, 1 more question.

alot of people say snakes are bad at sensing heat. - this is why ive got to have the UTH actually under the enclosure to make sure he doesnt burrow and burn.

however, the same people encourage me to have a gradient of heat, so that the snake can choose where it wants to be. they also encourage to have a basking spot.

can anyone else see the contradiction? surely if a snake is capable of choosing the area in which it lays on the basis of the heat of that area, it is also capable of avoiding areas that might be too hot?

i would really like someone to explain. i know theyre right, and that im missing something. thanks again.

[seercirra]

also, can camera flashes bother him or hurt his eyes?
thanks guys. i know it sucks to answer 20 questions but they arent obvious and its all for the good of the snake

[blackcrystal22]

Ok, I am not as concerned about your enclosure as I was now.

hi black crystal, thanks dude for your quick reply.



ok, thats pretty cool. mines fairly similar. although whats the problem with log hides?
this isnt a circular, hollow log i have. its looks more like its from the root mass of the tree. theres basically one small entrance from the ground and another from above. he has hid in it before. do you still think i should get rid of it?

Those type of trunk/stump hides are good. But I suggest placing it in the middle of the cage and two identical hides on opposite ends so that he doesn't have to make as many sacrifices for desires. For example, if his favorite hide was on the cold end but he wanted to be warm he may go to the cold end and sacrifice the heat for the hide he prefers. Having two identical hides helps to eliminate this. The trunk log hide is a good extra hide to have in there though, I see no problem with it.

ok thanks, i thought so, but wanted to check.
i tried to get the mat out, but i cant. infact i cant figure out how they got it in there, lol. theres a small hole feeding the wire through, but the hole isnt big enough for the mat O_o.
actually, thinking again, they mustve just seperated the plug from the wire. ill have a look and see if i can do the same.

Would you mind taking a picture? I did not realize it was built into the enclosure. Since it was, there may be other steps that need to be taken. Is there a wooden floor on the cage? If not, you may want to invest in a tile slab (plastic or real tile both work) for an easier cleanable base. This way you can seal the tile above the UTH and create a false floor that won't leak onto the UTH and won't be directly heated. I've never done this myself, but I know there are a couple people I can PM about it if you need me to.
You do need some type of non-soaking floor. A pure wooden floor would just hold bacteria like no other and mold/rot and who knows what else.

ok, ive read conflicting advice regarding a night time drop and light cycle. some people say its necessary. some say irrelevant. yours agrees with my logic so ill go along with it.
maybe i was misleading when i said "tank". i dont know the correct terminology. its basically 5 sides wood and the front side glass. the wood is almost an inch thick. so i guess that wood would absorb more heat than standard glass. and so probably will be safe when placed under the box.

There is a LOT of conflicting advise about there about ball pythons in general. Balls will spend weeks in a burrow only coming out to drink and eat, though usually they eat from their burrow by waiting for food to pass (it is also a good idea to feed in the enclosure as well despite controversial info you may have heard on that, it is less stressful on the snake and ingesting substrate is not a big deal at all). They don't need UV rays of any type like tortoises and many lizards do, so light cycles are not all that important. The normal cycle of you being in the room and the sun shining through a window is fine. The only thing that is recommended, that if you do provide light in the cage (for viewing or a heat boost) then you do need to cycle it by turning it off at night.

because its a big enclosure, ive put three hides in there. do you still think i should get rid of the log? it does offer a good hiding place, not just a hollowed out branch. as for getting rid of the lamp, agree'd. but... the idle air temp with just the heat mat on, is about 77degrees.
i guess that will drop considerably when the mat is placed under teh enclosure, so would you recommend fitting a low watt fluorescant light too? something like 20w i imagine would stable the temps at mid 80's.

Thats alright. You may need to downgrade the enclosure if he isn't eating or is becoming stressed by the space. You could block of part of the cage to do this.
I have a couple tanks that I have low wattage florescent viewing lights, and they work well but don't really add any heat. If you want to try to add heat to the cage, you can get an extra UTH (that you may not need to plug into a thermostat if the base is thick) and just put that under the enclosure for a bit of added floor heat. I suggest just putting it under the cage and elevating the cage slightly so it's not pressed up on the cage or counter (which would create a fire hazard).
You can also insulate the sides of the enclosure more, there are multiple insulation methods that we can recommend for you if you'd like to try that.

ok, so actually, when i handle him and he constantly tries to explore, thats a bad thing? its actually a sign that it is happier if its just curled up? if thats the case then im quite pleased, as he never tried to slip away when i handled him.

it slithered in my pocket the other day, lol. searching for a dark place. he popped his head out when the rest of his body was inside, and just sat there for ages, looking like the cutest thing youve ever seen - basically until i put him back in the enclosure, lol.

Handling behaviors can differ from snake to snake. If a snake is severely thrashing and trying to get away, that is stressful, but a little bit of movement is not so bad. Exploration is usually only bad if it's constantly roaming around a cage, in which means they are looking for a more secure place to be.
Being in a ball while handling is a younger ball python thing. It will get better with age and is completely normal.

ok, cool. ill pick up one of those lamp dimmers when i can. in the mean time, ive turned the 'UTH' off, until i get it out of the enclosure, and ive turned the light on. but ive put a cardboard partition up so the snake cant get to the light. the partition will also make him feel more secure, i hope. as his effective new enclosure is about 1.5ft x1 x1.
i am using a digital thermometer/humidity gauge. - it doesnt have prongs tho.

thanks again man and any other comments or suggestions from anyone are welcome.

Pick up one or two probe thermometers as well. They are really useful for specific area temperatures and can be used for multiple things. :]

edit: if its a sign that he is relaxed and happy, when i tried to remove the UTH earlier, i place him atop the enclosure, along with the water bowl while i was moving all the bark. rather than being scared he perused over to the bowl for a drink, lapped some up and then swaggered back to where he was and just waited, while i was working around him.

is that the behaviour of a happy snake? lol

As long as he's not constantly out and about, yes, he is a happy snake.

sorry, 1 more question.

alot of people say snakes are bad at sensing heat. - this is why ive got to have the UTH actually under the enclosure to make sure he doesnt burrow and burn.

however, the same people encourage me to have a gradient of heat, so that the snake can choose where it wants to be. they also encourage to have a basking spot.

can anyone else see the contradiction? surely if a snake is capable of choosing the area in which it lays on the basis of the heat of that area, it is also capable of avoiding areas that might be too hot?

i would really like someone to explain. i know theyre right, and that im missing something. thanks again.

Snakes are not bad at sensing heat itself. Rather, they are bad at moving when the heat gets too hot. They don't recognize that the temperatures can burn them, this is why heat rocks and high temperatures are bad things.
You do not need a basking spot. Ball pythons won't bask, they will hide constantly and need the belly heat where the hide is. They will not leave the safety of their hides to bask, so basking lights aren't needed.
You do need a gradient of heat so that the cool side is 80-85F and the warm side is 90-95F. This way, especially during digestion, they will move to their desired area of temperature.

also, can camera flashes bother him or hurt his eyes?
thanks guys. i know it sucks to answer 20 questions but they arent obvious and its all for the good of the snake

No, don't worry, camera flashing might surprise them a little bit, but it won't hurt their eyes.

[seercirra]

ok bugger it i couldnt help myself

i looked up the previous question online and it seems flashes wont hurt him, so took a couple of snaps.

let me know what you think

[mrshawt]

As hard as the urge to handle him is, you need to resist until he's fuly settled in. Another new member recently was talking about how his bp wouldn't stop striking at him even in the tank. He wouldn't stop trying to handle it in the first fews days and it really stressed it out.

[seercirra]

As hard as the urge to handle him is, you need to resist until he's fuly settled in. Another new member recently was talking about how his bp wouldn't stop striking at him even in the tank. He wouldn't stop trying to handle it in the first fews days and it really stressed it out.

heh, yeah i know its difficult. and he's back in now for atleast 15-20 hours. he's just so placid though, he actually seems more worried when i move away from him - he tries to latch onto a finger or something. when i put him back into the box he just sits on my hand and looks at me. lol, i have to pick him up and put him in.
when i have 'handled' him im not active though, ive just let him find a nook or crevice where he feels safe and i leave him be, while i type or something. he just sits there till i put him back..

[seercirra]

Ok, I am not as concerned about your enclosure as I was now.


Those type of trunk/stump hides are good. But I suggest placing it in the middle of the cage and two identical hides on opposite ends so that he doesn't have to make as many sacrifices for desires. For example, if his favorite hide was on the cold end but he wanted to be warm he may go to the cold end and sacrifice the heat for the hide he prefers. Having two identical hides helps to eliminate this. The trunk log hide is a good extra hide to have in there though, I see no problem with it.

aight, i made 2 crappy looking hides from a tubular cardboard box i had. one of them ive stuck upto a corner of the box, its quite long but open topped. he likes to both hide inside it and he also climbs to the top and sits there. the other is just a little box which ive stuck a roof on. there isnt really any gradient in temperature any more with the partition there. but ill move the box like one to the other side anyway. i know he likes them both quite alot. theyre from the same original box so theyre both the same, snug fit.

Would you mind taking a picture? I did not realize it was built into the enclosure. Since it was, there may be other steps that need to be taken. Is there a wooden floor on the cage? If not, you may want to invest in a tile slab (plastic or real tile both work) for an easier cleanable base. This way you can seal the tile above the UTH and create a false floor that won't leak onto the UTH and won't be directly heated. I've never done this myself, but I know there are a couple people I can PM about it if you need me to.
You do need some type of non-soaking floor. A pure wooden floor would just hold bacteria like no other and mold/rot and who knows what else.

yeh sure, gotta wait on my rechargeable batteries though, theyre awful.my camera only turns on when the batteries are fully charge. and these batteries are nerfed and their "full charge" lasts for about 10 pictures.
yes, theres a wooden floor to the cage. its all wooden apart from a glass sliding front panel which ive made sure the snake cant open.
its basically its basically cheap chip board with a smooth, flat veneer. is that ok? i dont *think* it would absorb water.

There is a LOT of conflicting advise about there about ball pythons in general. Balls will spend weeks in a burrow only coming out to drink and eat, though usually they eat from their burrow by waiting for food to pass (it is also a good idea to feed in the enclosure as well despite controversial info you may have heard on that, it is less stressful on the snake and ingesting substrate is not a big deal at all). They don't need UV rays of any type like tortoises and many lizards do, so light cycles are not all that important. The normal cycle of you being in the room and the sun shining through a window is fine. The only thing that is recommended, that if you do provide light in the cage (for viewing or a heat boost) then you do need to cycle it by turning it off at night.

cool, thanks for that, yeh i didnt think light cycle would be particularly important, i know they dont need any UV. the light is on in the enclosure but because of the partition, only a little is getting through. it guess its the equivalent to dusk. is constant dusk ok? lol.

Thats alright. You may need to downgrade the enclosure if he isn't eating or is becoming stressed by the space. You could block of part of the cage to do this.
I have a couple tanks that I have low wattage florescent viewing lights, and they work well but don't really add any heat. If you want to try to add heat to the cage, you can get an extra UTH (that you may not need to plug into a thermostat if the base is thick) and just put that under the enclosure for a bit of added floor heat. I suggest just putting it under the cage and elevating the cage slightly so it's not pressed up on the cage or counter (which would create a fire hazard).
You can also insulate the sides of the enclosure more, there are multiple insulation methods that we can recommend for you if you'd like to try that.

ok great, well the night time ambient in the room which the enclosure is in is about 70degrees at the moment, and in the day its rising to 80. so im just making sure that everything goes smoothly for winter really. i already blocked part of the cage

Handling behaviors can differ from snake to snake. If a snake is severely thrashing and trying to get away, that is stressful, but a little bit of movement is not so bad. Exploration is usually only bad if it's constantly roaming around a cage, in which means they are looking for a more secure place to be.
Being in a ball while handling is a younger ball python thing. It will get better with age and is completely normal.

ok, thanks. yeah its good to know he wont always be in a ball if he gets handled. thatd be really boring. its really endearing now, though.

Pick up one or two probe thermometers as well. They are really useful for specific area temperatures and can be used for multiple things. :]

oh? like what? lols. maybe were on the same wavelength.

As long as he's not constantly out and about, yes, he is a happy snake.

good to know

Snakes are not bad at sensing heat itself. Rather, they are bad at moving when the heat gets too hot. They don't recognize that the temperatures can burn them, this is why heat rocks and high temperatures are bad things.
You do not need a basking spot. Ball pythons won't bask, they will hide constantly and need the belly heat where the hide is. They will not leave the safety of their hides to bask, so basking lights aren't needed.
You do need a gradient of heat so that the cool side is 80-85F and the warm side is 90-95F. This way, especially during digestion, they will move to their desired area of temperature.

cool, thanks for clearing that up for me. yeah, i never saw the logic in people saying they want a light to bask, especially if you have a heated mat it just seems totally un necessary. ive gotta try and make sure i can get some kind of gradient working... the mat i have is quite large so ill probably place half and half, under the snakes side and the side with the light (although itll be turned off with the mat on)

No, don't worry, camera flashing might surprise them a little bit, but it won't hurt their eyes.

thanks :p

lol, cheers buddy