jungle/jungle pastel/ pastel

[jhall1468]

I don't know that there is one, but I know there is a Stinger Bee (Enchi X Spider) that looks nothing like a Bumble Bee...

That doesn't matter. Pewters, Silver Bullets and Silver Streaks ALL look different if you use a Black, rather than a Cinny. Yet, the Black and Cinny ARE the same gene, just different Alleles.

Again, unless an Enchi x Pastel does not produce Supers, nobody can claim they are "different".

[xdeus]

I don't know that there is one, but I know there is a Stinger Bee (Enchi X Spider) that looks nothing like a Bumble Bee...

Why would you claim that they're not compatible if you can't back it up?

[cueball]

Here's a junlge

[jhall1468]

Why would you claim that they're not compatible if you can't back it up?

New Pastel lines are beggining to make claims like this often. Stan Ruppel made these claims early on with his line, and unfortunately, people soaked it up. The obvious purpose is to make more $$$. Sad really...

Where people got this idea about Enchi's is beyond me. Even Lars Brandell specifically states that he believes (and still does) Enchi's are a Pastel (http://www.sweball.com/aboutenchi.html).

[coldbloodaddict]

Why would you claim that they're not compatible if you can't back it up?

Well if there is a different Morph being made when it's crossed with the Spider that pretty much backs it up...If it was a "reg."Pastel he would have made a Bumble Bee not a Stinger Bee...

Enchi's look nothing like a Pastel and neither do the Supers...

If you read the Enchi story at sweball he constantly states how it differs from "reg." Pastels...So what does that tell me...It's not a Pastel...

Only time will tell for sure, but I bet I'm right...Jon

[xdeus]

Well if there is a different Morph being made when it's crossed with the Spider that pretty much backs it up...If it was a "reg."Pastel he would have made a Bumble Bee not a Stinger Bee...

Enchi's look nothing like a Pastel and neither do the Supers...

If you read the Enchi story at sweball he constantly states how it differs from "reg." Pastels...So what does that tell me...It's not a Pastel...

Only time will tell for sure, but I bet I'm right...Jon

That may be true, but without definitive proof you should have worded your comment with a "probably" instead of just "not compatible", then state the reasons why you believe they're different.

[jhall1468]

That may be true, but without definitive proof you should have worded your comment with a "probably" instead of just "not compatible", then state the reasons why you believe they're different.

True. But I imagine the poster was told as much by a "reputable breeder" and simply assumed he/she wasn't making it up. I assume many of us would do the same if Adam were saying something, or Mendel was commenting on genetics issue.

Right now the BP market is just getting to the point where ignorance and naivety is going to play a major role. And the best thing we can do is correct it . With lots of dancing carrots.

[RandyRemington]

Testing compatibility in co-dominants is tricky. Take the white snake complex. Distinctly different looking animals from lessers to Vin Russo high lemon yellows can apparently be crossed to make a super white snake. The test is the next generation when the cross line white snake breeds to a normal. As far as I know they have always produced 50/50 splits of the two lines and no normals and no white snakes. This indicates that the two lines where likely alleles - different mutations of the same gene. It's possible they are just very near loci and a crossover could eventually happen between them but most likely given the "super" combination that they are alleles.

However, when pastel jungle and cinnamon pastel where crossed and produced the super looking pewter subsequent breedings proved they where two different genes. We now have animals like silver bullets having more than two copies of the two genes combined. This would not be possible in a situation where a single gene with multiple mutant variations was involved. You should not be able to produce a mojave + Vin Russo + lesser because there is only room for two copies of any one gene.

So IMHO the test for enchi compatibility will not be just to produce a super looking combination with pastel. Even if they are separate genes when you cross a regular pastel with an enchi pastel you would expect to get 25% normals, 25% regular pastel only, 25% enchi pastel only, and 25% both genes combined. The cumulative effect of both genes combined might look super without them being the same gene. The test if they are different versions of the same gene will then be if the super is bred to a normal and produces only 50/50 regular pastel and enchi pastel with no normals and no supers. If they are different genes, then the super could produce 25% normals and 25% supers along with the two parent types. Again, there is the possibility of linkage if they are two separate genes on the same chromosome complicating these results.

All this assumes that they aren't the same version of the same gene which may well be the case with some of the named pastel lines. In some cases, line breeding may have isolated multiple other genes that make a family resemblance like extremely bright or faded but the exact same pastel gene is seen in that line as other lines. If the enchi looks consistently different you would expect that even at that first step when you cross with another pastel line you could continue to pick out the two different lines in the offspring indicating that there may well be a different version of the pastel gene involved.

[jhall1468]

So IMHO the test for enchi compatibility will not be just to produce a super looking combination with pastel. Even if they are separate genes when you cross a regular pastel with an enchi pastel you would expect to get 25% normals, 25% regular pastel only, 25% enchi pastel only, and 25% both genes combined. The cumulative effect of both genes combined might look super without them being the same gene.

I agree to an extent. Like I said earlier, a single breeding season isn't going to be enough to prove anything. That said, anyone with an eye for Pastels will readily see the differences between an Enchi and a Graziani. The head pattern, the tounge color etc. So a 25% Graziani, 25% Enchi offspring would be noticable to an experienced breeder.

If the enchi looks consistently different you would expect that even at that first step when you cross with another pastel line you could continue to pick out the two different lines in the offspring indicating that there may well be a different version of the pastel gene involved.

How do you define "consistently different". The Enchi certainly looks similar to the other pastel lines, and the Super Enchi looks similar to other Super Pastels. Granted, crossing an Enchi with another morph does look "different" than a Pastel with the same cross, but that doesn't remove doubt. See my Cinny and Black example.

[Freakie_frog]

Heres a good side by side of the difference between the Jungle and the Enchi

One of my male Jungles






and an Enchi (photo is from proexotics.com)

http://www.proexotics.com/pricelist_...2_06_enchi.jpg
I hope this will let people see the difference between them visualy.