Possibly sick BP, could really use some help figuring out if it's a big deal or not

[Rai]

"In fact, he kept shedding. Like... 3 times in one month". The long time breeder ignored this symptom, which seems to me to be the interesting one.

This is an interesting symptom too: "but still dirties his water way more often then he used to."

Personally, I would not freak out (it doesn't help), but would go to the vet on Friday and request extensive testing.

Also, I would get some enclosures that hold heat well. BPs are enough of a challenge without fighting with sub optimal equipment. PVC enclosure, RHP on a quality thermostat (Herpstat) can make a world of difference in avoiding health problems and keeper headaches.

Good luck, and please keep us posted.

I should possibly clarify, when I said "dirties his water" I mostly mean he's clearly going in there somewhat often, its just not as often as he was previously. Like, he wasn't constantly soaking, but he was in the bowl more often then he was before this all started.

And yes, I'm definitely starting to realize that. I'm not sure why it's only just now started having issues holding in heat, but I'm not a fan. And I will most definitely keep you all posted! Thank you!

[Rai]

After you get whatever is amiss with him cleared up with the vet's help, you might consider undoing the "bioactive" setup and rebuilding it in a more suitable way. Unfortunately, that style of enclosure design can be and often is more harmful than helpful.

Yeah, I'm definitely starting to realize that. The set up came with the snakes, and it was fun to learn about the process and how it all worked, but it definitely makes addressing problems a lot harder, I'm discovering. Also made moving the tanks quite a pain too.

[Malum Argenteum]

Yeah, I'm definitely starting to realize that. The set up came with the snakes, and it was fun to learn about the process and how it all worked, but it definitely makes addressing problems a lot harder, I'm discovering. Also made moving the tanks quite a pain too.

When you said 'a decent bit of hydroton at the very bottom' it was apparent that this is one of those 'jam it in a bioactive' things that the previous owner did without understanding what they were doing but were just hopping on the bandwagon.

With BPs, you can get 100% of the benefit of a "bioactive" with roughly zero percent of the potential harm by employing naturalistic design. Naturalistic enclosures use wood, cork bark, natural substrate materials, possibly a live plant or two (potted is best). I find that herps prefer natural materials over artificial materials, so naturalistic builds can have benefit for the snake.

With naturalistic design, you ignore the (very oversold) role of the "clean up crew" that doesn't actually do much clean up for an animal with the pooping habits of a BP. You also don't use a drainage layer (because it isn't necessary, since BP enclosures aren't misted enough to build up water in the drainage layer). This enables you to have a depth of substrate that is shallow enough that heating isn't such a challenge, expense, weight, and wasted enclosure space.

When/if you strip out your enclosure, if there are isopods or other microfauna in the substrate, be aware that it is both environmentally damaging and illegal (in the US) to release those isopods outside. Heating the substrate to kill them before disposing is best, though it is often thought responsible enough to double bag the substrate and put it into the regular trash. Whatever you do, don't compost it.

[Rai]

First, if a vet says that your BP is possibly septic, then you need need get that confirmed and/or treated asap. I don't see how there can be nothing wrong with your BP. You've described a bunch of symptoms that individually would be worrisome. Taken together, they require immediate action. The regurgitation and the frequent shedding are particularly concerning.

Secondly, I'd like to help you get your BP's set up dialed in. A properly set up enclosure will help your BP heal and prevent future issues. So, what type of enclosure are you using (PVC, wood, glass)(screen top, front opening)? How big is it? What are you using to heat the enclosure? What thermostats do you use? What are the temperature (low to basking) and humidity ranges like in your enclosure, now? How are you measuring them? What type of bedding do you use? How often do you change it? Don't worry if you don't know the answers to all these questions. Just answer them the best that you can. Pics would help a lot. This thread will show you how to post them:https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-Post-Pictures.

I want to finish by saying that I admire the diligence you've shown in addressing these issues. It speaks of someone that really cares. Good luck.

Thank you T___T I really appreciate that. I really want to be a good snake parent, and it's upsetting to think I've let things be a problem for so long.

As for my enclosure, I am definitely down to make any changes I can, though I will admit, I'll likely spend every spare scent on just the vet visits, so it might be a while before I can do anything crazy (Especially since I have to make any changes twice). But I can at least share what I have now (and then post pictures when I get home.)

Tank:
40 gal breeder (I think) glass, with screens on top and front facing doors. There's an LED grow light on one side for lighting for both the plants and snakes.

Heating:
Brand new Zilla terrarium heat mat (16 watts) under the cool side
Brand new Fluker's Ceramic lamp w/ 60W ceramic bulb set up over the hot side
4 year old Herpstat EZ2 (I think) thermometer.

Substrate:
I mentioned earlier that it's a bio-active enclosure, entirely because that's what was given to me, and I found it interesting enough conceptually to maintain. So substrate is a mixture of eco earth, sand, some activated charcoal, leaf litter and hydroton.

I replaced the heat lamp and UTH because I was worried they weren't working well enough to keep the tank warm (and also my electricity bill is way higher than it should be), but that did not make any change at all. My next plan had been to replace the herpstat, in case that was causing some issues, but I would have to save up for that (my budget is very tight T___T).

But after all this, I'm unsure if that should be my first choice or if I should replace the tank and get rid of the bio-active part. I love my bugs, and its been very fun managing that whole process, but it seems to be causing some problems in addressing this sickness.

[Rai]

When you said 'a decent bit of hydroton at the very bottom' it was apparent that this is one of those 'jam it in a bioactive' things that the previous owner did without understanding what they were doing but were just hopping on the bandwagon.

With BPs, you can get 100% of the benefit of a "bioactive" with roughly zero percent of the potential harm by employing naturalistic design. Naturalistic enclosures use wood, cork bark, natural substrate materials, possibly a live plant or two (potted is best). I find that herps prefer natural materials over artificial materials, so naturalistic builds can have benefit for the snake.

With naturalistic design, you ignore the (very oversold) role of the "clean up crew" that doesn't actually do much clean up for an animal with the pooping habits of a BP. You also don't use a drainage layer (because it isn't necessary, since BP enclosures aren't misted enough to build up water in the drainage layer). This enables you to have a depth of substrate that is shallow enough that heating isn't such a challenge, expense, weight, and wasted enclosure space.

When/if you strip out your enclosure, if there are isopods or other microfauna in the substrate, be aware that it is both environmentally damaging and illegal (in the US) to release those isopods outside. Heating the substrate to kill them before disposing is best, though it is often thought responsible enough to double bag the substrate and put it into the regular trash. Whatever you do, don't compost it.

Yeah, I think that was probably the case. At the time, I didn't question the hydroton, because my only experience with it had been an aquaponic fish tank. But with all of the substrate above that, it makes much less sense.

And thank you for the last bit as well. I wouldn't release anything without looking into it first, but it's nice to get a head start on that research. Fortunately, researching the legality and environmental impact of releasing certain animals is infinitely easier than researching snake husbandry stuff. There is so much conflicting information everywhere T___T

[Bogertophis]

After you get whatever is amiss with him cleared up with the vet's help, you might consider undoing the "bioactive" setup and rebuilding it in a more suitable way. Unfortunately, that style of enclosure design can be and often is more harmful than helpful.

I'll heartily second that. Keep it simpler & focus on the snake.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rai: In response to an earlier question about soaking in the water bowl, when snakes are fed live rodents (at any time in their life) they can end up with internal parasites ("worms") from the rodents that cause a loss of both nutrients & hydration. Then they may soak to improve hydration. When you see the vet, try to take a fresh stool sample for the vet to check for parasites, & if you don't have a fresh sample, ask the vet about it while there. If this is the case, it's pretty easy to treat for & cure, but when ignored, can really hurt a snake's health.

As far as snakes responding to cool temperatures by soaking in water (ie. trying to get even cooler?) that theoretically could apply to a snake that's trying to brumate, but BPs don't do that. I have also raised & bred many snakes (colubrids) that did brumate, & I don't recall any of them soaking in their bowls at that time of year, so? (Don't believe everything you read online- consider the source, & if deemed reliable, request an explanation.)

Also, 55-60% humidity is fine for most of the time (for a BP) but during a shed cycle, most find it helpful to raise humidity to 65-75%.

This is hard to keep up with all of us answering, isn't it?

[Rai]

I'll heartily second that. Keep it simpler & focus on the snake.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rai: In response to an earlier question about soaking in the water bowl, when snakes are fed live rodents (at any time in their life) they can end up with internal parasites ("worms") from the rodents that cause a loss of both nutrients & hydration. Then they may soak to improve hydration. When you see the vet, try to take a fresh stool sample for the vet to check for parasites, & if you don't have a fresh sample, ask the vet about it while there. If this is the case, it's pretty easy to treat for & cure, but when ignored, can really hurt a snake's health.

As far as snakes responding to cool temperatures by soaking in water (ie. trying to get even cooler?) that theoretically could apply to a snake that's trying to brumate, but BPs don't do that. I have also raised & bred many snakes (colubrids) that did brumate, & I don't recall any of them soaking in their bowls at that time of year, so? (Don't believe everything you read online- consider the source, & if deemed reliable, request an explanation.)

Oh most definitely. When doing research, I try to find as many sources as possible, and preferably reliable ones. The issue I came across with the soaking was that the most common answers were proven not it, so I was kind of scrounging for any answer that it could be (that was left after crossing out the more well documented ones). Or perhaps more accurately, I was searching for any problem that would provide another potential solution to attempt.

Sorting through information online is challenging at the best of times, so I always take what I read with at least some grain of salt. The issue with husbandry stuff I keep coming up on is just the sheer amount of information available, much of which can be challenging to navigate and is often conflicting. And unfortunately, you heard what sort of "local experts" I have in my area.

And as for replies, honestly I'm very grateful! Though I do feel somewhat bad when two people ask a question and I only answer one lol, so hopefully that's not an issue.

[Malum Argenteum]

Sorting through information online is challenging at the best of times, so I always take what I read with at least some grain of salt. The issue with husbandry stuff I keep coming up on is just the sheer amount of information available, much of which can be challenging to navigate and is often conflicting.

One thing that helps a lot is knowing how to determine if an animal care site is written by someone knowledgable. Websites that should be ignored (found by searching 'ball python care') are:

-- those with cute, generic, or novelty names: 'cutesnakes.com', 'ilovepythons.com', 'happysnake.com' (I made these up, but you get the idea).

-- those that are 'Amazon Affiliates', who are just trying to sell stuff. One famous site of this sort is claiming that to care for a BP I need a UVB lamp (which isn't at all necessary) and Repashy Calcium Plus (which is a terrible idea, since Vitamin A overdose is pretty likely, and rodents already have a perfect calcium/phosphorus ratio). This site also recommends incandescent lamps for heat, and additionally a heat mat only if the room goes below 70F at night. This site also advises putting the heat mat temp probe in the enclosure with the snake (rather than taped to the mat, since "this does not enable the thermostat to control the temps that the animal feels, only how hot the heat mat itself gets. In other words, it renders the thermostat almost entirely ineffective."

-- those that have "care sheets" for a very wide range of herp species (snakes, lizards, turtles, frogs, in one I found). This is the easiest red flag to spot, and will weed out about 90% of the junk. No one knows how to care for all these species, and anyone who is very knowledgable about the one or two groups of animals they're invested in isn't going to publish a bunch of fluff about other species.

-- those that are way oversold: "This complete guide will teach you everything you need to know about ball python care." It might teach everything the author knows about ball python care, I suppose.

-- those that have impossibly basic information: "(Ball pythons) are known for their unique characteristics. They have stout body, a small head, and smooth scales. Their coloration varies widely, the most common being a base color of brown or black with light brown or gold sides and dorsal blotches. The belly is usually white or cream." Use this clue to tell what level of readership they're targeting, which is casual clickers rather than actual owners doing real research.

Unfortunately, it isn't possible to Google questions and get answers anymore -- the internet is flooded with AI written nonsense. You need to find a reliable source of information first, and then dig around there.

[Rai]

Hey, so figured I'd share an update after today's vet visit.

So the vet is fairly confident that it's not septicemia, and that the first vet (the one in my home town) likely just completely misidentified things. That being said, she did agree that the other symptoms were some cause for concern, just not immediate life or death concern. The plan was to draw blood for tests and send me home with antibiotics to give him over the next month, but they were unsuccessful in drawing blood, so the new plan is to start the antibiotics and monitor him closely over the next month. I may or may not (depending on how he responds to the antibiotics and better managed heat) bring him back in about a week and a half to try for the blood draw again.

Either way, I feel much better just knowing its not the one big bad thing. Still unsure what it is, but at least I have the time to find out now.

Thank you again for all of your help! Likely won't reply back today if solely because its been a very exhausting day, but I will still be around in general, and I'll definitely keep y'all posted if anything happens <3

[Bogertophis]

I'm very glad it's not septicemia & that it's now a "work in progress".