How can a cage be too big???

[dr del]

I get flamed for giving "vet advice" yet others do it.

Speaking as the person responsible for this the reason was because the advice you offered was actually dangerous and could easily have lead to extreme complications or the death of the snake involved.
This is a little different than recomending a procedure routinely recomended and carried out on snakes.
I also didn't really consider I was flaming you but I can see how you may have felt that.

I've pointed out that my vet has made some very good arguments to me for not doing an initial culture as well as using oral Baytril. Does anybody here even acknowledge that?

I did? I told you why the big breeders get cultures done. On the oral baytril front I have had both prescribed over the years and can definately say the injections worked faster but after a second course the oral did seem to clear things up.

One thing that they pointed out was that there was not conclusive evidence that oral Baytril does not work, and that they had positive experiences with it.

I think it does work - eventually. It took an extra course in my experience and, personally, I want to try and cure the infections as quickly as possible if I can. I can also assure you giving oral medication to a ball python is a lot harder than giving it injections - mine was considerably less than co-operative.

They also pointed out that there are some significant side effects to injections which include risk of necrosis in the muscle tissue as well as increased pain for the animal (which is certiainly true).

I think those are far more likely if the injections are incorrectly administered. As for the pain it is fleeting and I would rather that than double the time of suffering the infection. I admit the above is only my personal feelings on the matter however.

In addition, they provided me with a nice long printout from a vet's forum on the issue to back it up. Anybody here mention any of this stuff? No. I got things like "Injections are the only way to go." etc. Who's flaming those people for giving vet advice?????

Could you ask them if it would be ok to share it with us as I'm sure many of our members would like to read it?

No one is flaming them because that is the standard vetinary advice and , having been used for many years by many people, is extremely unlikely to cause the animal to experience any negative effects.

I don't abuse my snake and my cage is, by now, almost entirely in line with what's recommended here.

We may have stumbled onto another factor - I didn't know that. I've only ever seen the arguing side and never the post where you said "ok I agree and will do that"

Now what's the "almost" bit?

Part of the problem though is that this site is dual purpose. On one hand it is a troubleshooting site and on the other it is a place for enthusiasts to share experiences and debate. Likewise, legal liabilities ensure that an MD can't do much more than regurgitate the currently accepted "correct" advice to you during a patient visit yet the history of medical research that provided that information is long and rich and involves experimentations, failures, debates, upsets, you name it. For the safety of the patient, these are kept very separate. On BP.net they live side-by-side.

Intresting point - I hadn't really though of the site as divided like that at all.

On the regurgitation of accepted correct advice, yes that's a good starting point and to do anything else would be grossly irresponsible as it could lead to suffering and possible death of another. It's not really a legal thing - more a moral thing for me. I will happily pass on wierd things that have worked for me in the past but only if I know that , even if they don't help, they certainly won't hurt.

It might make it easier to point out that experiments rely on analysis of the results informed by an understanding of baseline results and usually using a control group.

Now hurry up and finish 1.07 so I can resume my other addiction.


dr del

[bearhart]

To any new posters: please skip the "big-cage" thing. Any sort of idea that I can't be reached and just am going to recklessly throw my BP into a cavernous enclosure whilst he suffers is just not true. Any meaningful discussion on that topic was lost pages ago and I have already said that any steps I make in that direction will be done very carefully. I would also request that, unless you're willing to bite off carefully reading all of the preceding posts, please refrain from injecting what will basically be noise into this already complex discussion.

I did? I told you why the big breeders get cultures done. On the oral baytril front I have had both prescribed over the years and can definately say the injections worked faster but after a second course the oral did seem to clear things up.

I think it does work - eventually. It took an extra course in my experience and, personally, I want to try and cure the infections as quickly as possible if I can. I can also assure you giving oral medication to a ball python is a lot harder than giving it injections - mine was considerably less than co-operative.

I think those are far more likely if the injections are incorrectly administered. As for the pain it is fleeting and I would rather that than double the time of suffering the infection. I admit the above is only my personal feelings on the matter however.

Thanks, that's great to know and its certainly more well-rounded, informative, and appropriately qualified than the first batch of comments I got on this subject.

Having done both the oral and injection route now I would have to disagree with you on which is easier. I have found the oral to be far easier than injections and it is very clear from the amount of resistance that Snakey strong prefers the former.

Could you ask them if it would be ok to share it with us as I'm sure many of our members would like to read it?

I would very much like to contribute to the group knowledge on this issue in an organized fashion. When this is over I can share my experiences. I also agree that, while this printout lacks any definative answers on the subject, it does do a nice job of describing all the issues to consider and has some discussion of real-world experience. It is a paper printout taken from the VIN page. VIN is for professionals and students only so I can't get an electronic form there. Also, the printout page states that copyright is reserved and distribution is not allowed without written consent blah blah... If it wasn't for that I'd even take the time to type it all in. The other thing I could do is summarize the disscussion, basically reducing each post to a bullet list of the points made.

We may have stumbled onto another factor - I didn't know that. I've only ever seen the arguing side and never the post where you said "ok I agree and will do that"

That's not true. In the "burn point" thread (we should change this thread to "flash point" ) we discussed temps, rheostats, and t-stats. I did indeed follow advice echoed several times which was "at the very least go get a rheostat" - and I said multiple times that I did so. I am, indeed, very happy with the rheostat and have had good luck getting stable temperatures. For reasons THAT HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SNAKES I am somewhat leery of using a thermostat. Given that I am having such good luck getting stable temps using a rheostat, I do not feel that a t-stat is justified. I could actually give back to the group by outlining all that I've done but that would just be another freakshow argument.

Now what's the "almost" bit?

LOL!!! You know what I would have been very disappointed if this managed to slide through unnoticed!

So, since the introduction of the rheostat I have also eliminated what was undoubtedly the last major problems with Snakey's cage:
1) Insufficient cool-side heating.
2) Too much ventilation.
Both of which make it impossible to get the actual ambient temperature in the cage up in the 80's. The cage was more like a poorly insulated home in the winter. You're fine if you're by the heater but if you walk over to the corner of the room its cold.

My one deviation at this point is the lack of identical cool/warm hides. However, I have taken the importance of this to heart. I have a much more "organic" cage design that is cluttered with logs and pieces of cork bark. I like it because it looks nice and, in fact, creates more little hiding spots than, say, two planter bottoms. Currently, I don't feel that this is a problem because I have spent alot of time tweaking things (and watching Snakey's reaction) to the point where he does utililize the various hiding spots in order to thermoregulate.

Intresting point - I hadn't really though of the site as divided like that at all.

On the regurgitation of accepted correct advice, yes that's a good starting point and to do anything else would be grossly irresponsible as it could lead to suffering and possible death of another. It's not really a legal thing - more a moral thing for me. I will happily pass on wierd things that have worked for me in the past but only if I know that , even if they don't help, they certainly won't hurt.

Thanks for acknowledging this. The use of the work "regurgitation" was not meant to be negative at all. Perhaps the term "conservatively advise" would sound better. Also, the mention of legal issues was just a part of my medical analogy.

Anwyay, I think it might be kind of cool to have a troubleshooting forum. The site could be designed to funnel newcomers into it and it could say sometihng like:
"Troubleshooting help - get help for your snake from ball-python.net's most experienced keepers".
I think it would be great. I know I would have appreciated something like that when I first came here with my "help my snake is doing XXX" problem. It would also take some of the pressure off the other areas in terms of the aforementioned risk issues.

[bigballs]

i believe i said end of thread....

[JLC]

Forgive me, but I just have to step in here and say a few things. I may regret it...but y'all can shoot me in the morning if necessary.


First...to address the most recent suggestion about having a "troubleshooting" forum. That's pretty much what this entire site is about. Yes, we share a lot of other stuff besides "trouble"....but the site is divided into so many different sections and categories specifically so people can have places to look for answers to their troubles.....or find questions that they can answer. Yes....there's TONS of stuff to wade through, and it can be daunting for new members, which is why we see the same questions over and over again. I understand that. But....if we had a single "troubleshooting" forum...it would be even harder to find the answers because husbandry would be mixed in with breeding and ball pythons would be mixed in with bearded dragons and kingsnakes and how to keep the shelves on my rack from bowing.....

Second....some comments about this thread in general and others like it. Debate and discussion are always welcomed. If someone wants to question why we suggest the solutions that we do....that's fine. We like to hear ourselves type and most of the time are happy to explain ourselves. And if you don't agree with what you're hearing/seeing....it's fine to point that out. BUT....if you do intend to disagree...you have to expect folks to disagree right back atcha. And the fact that you can't convince someone that your side of the argument is right and they're wrong doesn't mean they don't like you or are out to get you in any way.

It's perfectly OK to read what we write and then come to your own conclusions based on your own experiences and other outside sources. We ALL do that. But we don't all seem to feel the need to justify every single conclusion to everyone around us who will listen.

If you want to discuss snakes and all the multitude of different ways it is possible to keep them....great! But please offer the same acceptance to what we have to say as you expect us to give to what you say.

((Please note that "we" in this instance encompasses the general "established" population that seems to so often be accused of whatever infraction or personal slight is felt at the moment.....and "you" is intended for anyone who feels picked on simply for expressing their dissenting opinions, and not any specific individual.))

[Adam_Wysocki]

One thing that they pointed out was that there was not conclusive evidence that oral Baytril does not work, and that they had positive experiences with it.

Oral Baytril is an "old school" method of treating RI's in ball pythons. It's a remedy that had worked for years in other larger bodied snakes (boas, burms, retics, etc) but due to the slower metabolisms of ball pythons we know today that it is largely ineffective in their treatment of RI's in p. regius. It will most likely do enough to make the symptoms go away, but will not eliminate the bacteria enough to prevent a potential relapse in the cooler winter months.

Many vets that do not stay current with literature documenting advances in reptile medicine are not familiar with how ball pythons are most effectively treated today ... Bayer, who holds that patent on Baytril, even recommends sub cutaneous injections specifically for treating respiratory infections in ball pythons.

The reality is that most of the cutting edge vets working with ball pythons (Scott Stahl, Charles Innus, Elliot Jacobson) are moving away from Baytil all togther in favor of third generation anti-pseudomonal cephalosporins or combinations of enroflaxin (or an aminoglycoside) and a cephalosporin.

They also pointed out that there are some significant side effects to injections which include risk of necrosis in the muscle tissue as well as increased pain for the animal (which is certiainly true).

The side effects from Baytril injections are exclusively related to the 100mg concentration used for large bodied boids. The 22.7mg concentration that ball pythons should be prescribed does not "burn" the skin. This is often a common misunderstanding about Baytril injections. I've been treating ball pythons specifically with Baytril for well over a decade now and have never seen a single "burn" when using the correct concentration of the drug.

Hope this helps.

-adam

[Freakie_frog]

Oral Baytril is an "old school" method of treating RI's in ball pythons. It's a remedy that had worked for years in other larger bodied snakes (boas, burms, retics, etc) but due to the slower metabolisms of ball pythons we know today that it is largely ineffective in their treatment of RI's in p. regius. It will most likely do enough to make the symptoms go away, but will not eliminate the bacteria enough to prevent a potential relapse in the cooler winter months.

Many vets that do not stay current with literature documenting advances in reptile medicine are not familiar with how ball pythons are most effectively treated today ... Bayer, who holds that patent on Baytril, even recommends sub cutaneous injections specifically for treating respiratory infections in ball pythons.

The reality is that most of the cutting edge vets working with ball pythons (Scott Stahl, Charles Innus, Elliot Jacobson) are moving away from Baytil all togther in favor of third generation anti-pseudomonal cephalosporins or combinations of enroflaxin (or an aminoglycoside) and a cephalosporin.



The side effects from Baytril injections are exclusively related to the 100mg concentration used for large bodied boids. The 22.7mg concentration that ball pythons should be prescribed does not "burn" the skin. This is often a common misunderstanding about Baytril injections. I've been treating ball pythons specifically with Baytril for well over a decade now and have never seen a single "burn" when using the correct concentration of the drug.

Hope this helps.

-adam

Paging doctor Wysocki.....code blue in the ball room.

Great post !!!

Learn something new every day

[MeMe]

Paging doctor Wysocki.....code blue in the ball room.

Great post !!!

Learn something new every day

o gee...you have a code blue-ball(s)!

get him an injection STAT!

[West Coast Jungle]

My vet tells me there is no confirmed data to date that shows if meds are absorbed orally and so he prefers injections.

When all else fails ask Dr. Wysocki.

[daniel1983]

With both the enclosure size and RI treatment....

....what are the results?

What we think about reptile husbandry and treatment is meaningless without showing results. IF there are negative results, we must be improve or change the way that we are treating/keeping our reptiles. IF you get positive results, we have the option to either be content with our results (and do not adjust anything) or continue to try to improve upon our keeping skills to get better results.

So with the actual results of certain housing and medical treatments in mind......

Is the enclosure size any issue if the snake is kept healthy and allowed to have successfully undergo basic life functions?

Is the RI treatment any issue if it successfully cures the illness?

It all about the animals and the results of our care....not our ideas, opinions, or interpretations of the proper housing or medical treatment.

As a keeper we have 100% control over the lives of the reptile. If they get sick, IT IS OUR FAULT. If they do not thrive, IT IS OUR FAULT. If they are stressed, IT IS OUR FAULT. If they are no provided proper vet care, IT IS OUR FAULT. It ALWAYS falls back on the keeper when something is not right.

However, some of us are blessed with the ability to say...My animals are healthy because I worked hard to support them. These sick animals are doing great since they have been treated and cared for by me. My animals reproduced successfully because I provided the conditions for them to mate. These lives emerged from the eggs because I incubated these eggs properly.

So what are your results? Every keeper should think about that before spewing information out.

If you are treating a RI, it does not matter how you do it or how great the doctor is that prescribed the treatment.......all that matters it that your snake gets better. Before the results of the treatment are determined, does any of the discussion even matter? All of the talk is just opinion.

If you house in a enclosure, the size is irrelevent. However, if your snake does not shed, eat, grow properly or is unhealthy....the enclosure you have is not good.

Pretty simple philosophy.

If something doesn't provide good results for your animal, then you learn a lesson and improve upon it.

Adam presented a good example of these 'improvements' with the progression of the treatment methods for Respiratory infections for ball pythons. There are 'old' methods that work. However, there are newer methods that work better. Some vets were content with the results of a certain treatment....Some vets were not content so they improved upon it.

Concerning enclosures.....Being content or satisified with keeping methods makes parts of husbandry very stale to me. Rack systems and other laboratory style methods of keeping reptiles are something where keepers found something that works well and are content with the results that it provides. Sure there are progressions with the functionality for OUR needs in newer designs but nothing significant for positive progress in terms of actual reptile care. Most keepers are content with the results of that particular housing style....some are not, so they should improve upon it, test it, then present their results.

Until the results are clear, it would seem better for some people to spend less time on forums argueing about who is right and wrong... instead they should spend more time concentrating on the captivity of their animals and learning from the greatest source of reptile care information....the animals themselves.

Just my general rambling for the week.........I was about due.

[fishmommy]

As for enclosure sizes, I am a big fan of large naturalistic enlcosures for all my caged pets.

However, with shy animals like BPs you have to be extremely careful to make sure the setup gives them the security they need. Lots of hides, visual barriers, etc.
I see that my snake utilizes all the space at night when I catch him all stretched out in it and it makes me happy I can give him the room he needs to do that. With a large enclosure I can have warm and cool water dishes, both large enough to bathe in comfortably if desired. The large enclosure also will provide plenty of room to get safely away from a regurge if *god forbid* that ever happens.

However, I keep an appropriately sized rubbermade tub sterilized and ready to house the snake should he ever have some kind of crisis that warrants a small, controlled environment.

Aim for your best, but prepare for the worst.