New to forums and BPs, and already a bad dad. :-(

[SamTLam]

Hi BPers!

You know, I had only intended on coming onto these forums to read, but now I have to chime in to say I am so amazingly grateful to everyone for all your wonderful advice, posts, anecdotes, etc. These forums are a priceless resource.

I am the proud-but-sleeplessly-worried new owner of a baby ball python, whom I got two Wednesdays ago (so, on May 17th, 2006). His name is Ash. (That's short for a Hebrew word for serpent, which is Nachash. I'm very Vietnamese, but I have a very Hebrew first name--Samuel/Sh'muel )

This is a pic of him the day I got him:


And his tank set-up the last week and half:



The setup included:
UTH on the hot end (underneath his hide) with a heating lamp directly above for basking. These are both set up to the same dimmer switch. Water dish on the cold end.

And that's actually it. You can see how I have virtually no control over the cold end. You'll see how this also played into the horror of the last week.

--

Man, has it been a ridiculously difficult ride. I mean, I thought I did my research and preparations properly before I got little Ash, but I had no idea what it actually entitled to have a ball python. I'm pretty much a newbie to BPs, and unfortunately it shows. I'm honestly trying my best!

Trying to cram the last week-and-a-half into a nutshell, but I always tend to ramble, and I also have new daddy syndrome:

I got him Wednesday, the 17th. I let him hang out in his tank for a while. I set his temperatures to a steady 92-76 (which I now realize is way too low on the cold end; I also have non-digital thermometers--more on this later). Hardly any temp variations because of the nice steady weather we had been having... which then changed. After talking to the store, I determined that his first feed should be the following Sunday.

I went back to the store on Sunday to get his first meal at his new home. Unfortunately, I ran into a seller there who didn't know that the store was feeding their baby balls mice, nor, I suppose, did he really understand that baby balls should probably be eating mice anyway. So the guy sold me a baby rat. (He was scolded by his co-workers, but honest mistake.) Ash did not take to the rat at all. Eventually the rat died--which was also painful to watch, but what was more painful was thinking that he was just not eating.

I went back on Tuesday the 23rd, told them what was up. The more experienced employees hardly said anything and just showed me a fuzzie. "Feed him this." I bought it, went home, and Ash took it faster than you can say CHEESE. I was elated! And so I planned on waiting 48+ hours to handle him for the first time. Worst thing that could've possibly happened that night? Can you imagine?...

Blackout. My area was blacked out that day from evening to about 2 AM. OHMIGOD, I thought I was going to break down and cry. Fortunately, the evenings were really nice and warm earlier this week, and I cranked up our room heater as far as it would, so that it was a steady 80 degrees throughout the room. STILL, as you guys can imagine, this wasn't helping poor Ash.

The power went back on, I reset the temps. Again, about 92-76--still too low, I know. Worst thing is on Wednesday, it started getting colder. (I live in the Bay Area, so climate changes are, well, expected.) So the temp was dropping wildly to low 70's on the cold end.

And then, because I thought everything was going well and because I saw Ash was going about his tank, looking content, I did the stupidest thing I could do during all these wild temperature fluctuations, and during his first meal at his new home, and while he was so young: I handled him on Thursday night. YES, it was more than 48 hours after feed, but in retrospect I should've been far easier on the guy and waited even longer.

Ash took to handling pretty well, I thought. He didn't ball up, and was very attentive and moved around a lot on my hand after a few minutes of watching me. I handled him about 15 minutes and put him back in.

Next morning, I walk out into the living room, look in the tank, and what do I see? A regurg. Okay, my heart went from sheer elation the previous day to shattering into a million pieces. Now, I wasn't SURE if it was regurg at first. I mean, it was clearly hairy, but it also looked to have traces of what could be poop. The thing was that, it didn't SMELL. I took it to the store, and they looked at it and were in disagreement among themselves, then one of the guys actually BROKE UP the lump of matter and, well, the odor flew out and we knew it was regurg. Absolutely disgusting.

I felt horrible. I still feel horrible. I can't even imagine how painful that was.

Anyway, the advice the store gave me, which I think you guys would agree with, is to leave Ash alone for at least two weeks (maybe even three), and then try feeding him something much smaller at that point (maybe a pinkie). Until then, I should really monitor the temps, specifically the temperature variance, which, one of the store employees said, "should not even come close to a max/min of plus/minus 10. It should not vary beyond a range of, say, 5 degrees tops. Steady is what you should aim for. Get a min-max thermometer, like at a hardware store, and if the temperature fluctuates wildly, you're going to have to bite the bullet and get a thermostats or two."

--

Okay, that's been my story. So my planned solutions are as follows:

1. I'm going to go to WalMart today, get an Acu-Rite thermometer+hygrometer. Straightforward enough. Note that I haven't even been checking his humidity, though temp seems to be the #1 problem now.
2. I'm going to buy another UTH to put on the cold end, and I also plan on getting thermostats for both the hot-end UTH and the new cold-end UTH, and do away completely with my dimmer switch. I think the weather here changes too much, and my apartment gets too cold, to simply not make that investment. (Do you guys have recommendations for tstats? The store sells ESU and Zoo-Med tstats.)

Anything else?

Incidentally, I've found a temporary solution until I go shopping today. What do you guys think? I've moved the heat lamp toward the CENTER of the tank. The temps were steady yesterday early evening at 92-82 for many hours, and when late night hit, dropped to about 88-78. I think that's the best his temperatures have EVER been, but I know it can get even colder in my apartment, so tstats seem to be the way to go.

Nevertheless, by repositioning the heat lamp, I've gained some control over the cold end, without sacrificing too much control over the hot end and UTH. The con is that I don't know what the ambient temp is like in the tank (I imagine the basking spot, which is now directly on the center of the tank, is majorly hot), nor the humidity, which actually may be better now that the water dish (on the cold end) is forced to evaporate. Anyway, moving the heat lamp may give me an idea of how I'll do my final setup later on.

Lastly, I know that I could invest in the world's most advanced ball python cage, but though I'm not financially unstable, I'm not rich. I'm also new to this, and if you guys could ease me in, that would be good. Help me figure out the NECESSITIES before the LUXURIES, which seem to be so hard to distinguish, especially when you're dealing with a living creature, especially a baby--snake or otherwise. Every luxury suddenly seems like a necessity!

Any ideas, advice, thoughts would be so appreciated. Thanks for reading my long post, if you have!

--Sam.

P.S. As I'm writing this morning, I just walked outside to check on Ash. He stayed curled up in his hide after the regurg, but is now out and about again. I didn't know you could totally fall in love with a snake.

[tigerlily]

Ok, first off welcome to the site. Sit down and take a deep breath.

My first thought is how are you measuring temps now? I think the digital thermometer will help tremendously. You want temps measured on the floor of the tank, not a couple inches up. Also how are you controlling your heat pad temps? Do you have a dimmer or a thermostat? Those heat pads can get extremely hot. I would get the digital thermometer in there asap, and go recheck those temps you have. Once you have a more accurate idea of what you have then go from there.

Secondly, you want to offer two identical hides. Those half logs really don't provide the security that a bp needs. They want to cram theirselves into the smallest, darkest place possible. I would also check those temps on the branch under the heat lamp. We have a couple people that have bps with bp burns on their backs because of them. Just place the probe, of the digital thermometer, on it for awhile and see what you get.

Lastly, the regurg. It's possible that the regurg was due to the low temps and the handling afterwards. Unfortunately, it could also be due to internal parasites. My advice would be to get him to a qualified reptile vet and have hin checked over, more specifically a fecal. (you could also have the sex determined as well if you wanted) The fecal is essential for a clean bill of health. I've thankfully not had a regurg, but I wouldn't think you should be able to break it up so easy. To my way of thinking, it should still basically be a fully formed mouse with the outside of it digested a bit, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. Is it possible it was just a bm? Either way I think a vet check would give you peace of mind, and make sure your bp is healthy.

[sweety314]

WELCOME, Sam!! :


I TOTALLY understand your concern, guilt and worries!!!! But be comforted!! You've come to the RIGHT PLACE, these ppls are GREAT for help and you're making the best effort to change and do better! That's a FANTASTIC STEP to take. < There have been some who, when pointed in a healthier direction for their pets, argued or ignored the advice.........>

We've all made mistakes, and that's why this forum is soooo awesome. The oldtimers will help us newbies w/o treating us like dumb-nuts.

Check out the care sheet. It's great for the humidity and temp info. The fact that you're immed. changing and getting the Accu-Rite is just great! I've tried the tapes, (learned here they're useless), went digital 1/1 combo, and now have the Accu-Rites in the majority of my tubs and tanks.

Cool side should never drop below 80 or your asking for respiratory infection. 82-84 cool, 92-94 hot. Humidity around 50-55%, bumped up to around 70 to help them shed. (Blue or murky eyes to when the skin peels about 4-7 days later.....Mine all shed w/in 4-5 days of "going blue", but I have a couple of snakes who are sneaky snakes and I've not caught them blue. I find the shed skin as a surprise. )

So glad to have you......Mites, humidity, feeding questions are all answered here.

Welcome Aboard!

RuLyn

[tigerlily]

Here's a couple of links to check out. These may be of additional help.

Care sheet - http://www.ball-pythons.net/modules...ewarticle&id=52

Here's the link also for the new FAQ on BP husbandry...
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/...ead.php?t=30763

[sweety314]

Sheesh!!! Christie beat me to it!!! She must type faster than I do...No WAIT! I know....I was typing the reply to her PM while she was typing to YOU! hee hee hee hee

Ok, first off welcome to the site. Sit down and take a deep breath.


Lastly, the regurg. ....... To my way of thinking, it should still basically be a fully formed mouse with the outside of it digested a bit, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. Is it possible it was just a bm? Either way I think a vet check would give you peace of mind, and make sure your bp is healthy.

When Wrigley regured, he had been digesting for 3 days. I was soooooo surprised!! It was slimy and VERY, VERY stinky!!! and still very much WHOLE. No mistaking it was his dinner. Didn't have to be dissected at all! Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuck!

By your description it could have been a poo, but the fact that it was REALLY stinky (?)...maybe he has parasites or bacterial problems. My reptile parasite card says runny poo, but maybe it's just starting??? Make an appt. with a HERP vet (make sure & ask if they take snakes. One person here called a vet, yes that take reptiles, took the snake in and then was told the vet didn't do SNAKES.)

Good luck!

[SamTLam]

Wow, I knew I totally came to the right place. I already feel really welcome. Thanks everyone!

Okay, tigerlily, in response to your post:
I'm measuring temps with two of those stick-on thermometers. Obviously a bad idea! They're these:
http://www.eastbayvivarium.com/suppl...hermometer.jpg

Actually, I should mention I got a min-max digital thermometer yesterday from the hardware store, per the reptile store's recommendation. I'm putting it on the cool end and it's measuring about 76--so if that's accurate, then I'm totally screwed. Well, not totally--that's what making changes are for! Indeed, I've cranked up the dimmer switch to its max setting, so that the UTH and heat lamp (which, remember, is not on the hot end but at the center of the tank) are as high as possible. I'm still getting way too low of temps. That should give you an idea of how cold it gets in my place.

Oh, and the thermometers (the two stick-on I was using, plus the digital I got yesterday) are all being measured from the floor, namely the top of my substrate, which is about 3/4-inch thick and is cypress mulch.

I'm currently using a dimmer, hooked up to both the lamp AND the UTH at the same time. Thus, when one goes up, the other goes up. I got this recommendation from someone and it's turning out to be just plain bad. Actually, not really: my problem isn't that the UTH and lamp are changing temps at the same time, but that no matter what I seem to do, the temps in the tank are just too wildly changing, and often too LOW. Thermostats are the way to go!

Alright, if I can't find two smaller hides at the herp store, I'll probably make my own from ceramic pots; I really like the idea!

I'll check on the branch when I get the digital thermometer, for sure! That was one reason why I didn't want to put the lamp at the center of the tank: the branch would inevitably get too hot! This is why I really want to get a UTH for the cool end, so that I can return the heat lamp to the hot / basking end.

I'm very fortunate to have a reputable reptile vet (who, yes, does snakes!) in the local area. Many of my friends who are veteran herp owners have gone to him often, and he's also the resident vet for the reptile store I go to. After I set Ash's tank up properly, I will very seriously consider going to the vet. (Oh, and Ash was already sexed at the store: he's a dude! Girls terrify me, human or reptilian!)

--

To both tigerlily and sweety,
It was definitely a regurg. It wasn't brittle, so my description of breaking it up may sound bad. More like the dude squeezed it open. Moreover, Ash did in fact poop this morning [saves poop for the vet], and now that I've seen deficate, I'm very clear on the difference! The regurg wasn't that messy: it was actually in a clump, which was what made me uncertain. The herp store's guess was that he had barely even digested the thing and spit it back up, which is why it was still relatively intact.

Thanks for the links, you two! I actually visited those two pages last night (the caresheet and husbandry FAQ), and they're really what prompted me to decide on the changes I'm making today.

I'll tell you how it goes with the new digital thermometer and also the tstats and other UTH. Do you guys think this is excessive or just plain sensible? Thanks!

[sweety314]

I did business w/Matt G (a member here) of MG Reptiles. Flexwatt, aluminum tape (restocked by buying at Wal-Mart) and the Johnson t-stats. Adam and some of the other BREEDERS have an on-going "disagreement" about the Helix and other brands of t-stats, but I'm still bottom line and not breeding, so don't need 1 t-stat to do HI and LOW temp control (like breeding cool downs).


I LOOOVE my Johnsons. Once I got them set up, I only have needed to tweak them occas. and that's because I have ONE forced air heater for my entire house, and the snakes are in 3 different rooms (VERY SMAAAAALL house ) so the t-stat has to compensate when the heater doesn't shut off (baaaaad!! house is too hot... and then I turn heater down and occas the rooms got too cold.

But they're all better now. And my snakeys are eating, growing, poo-ing and not regurging any more.....Now, if only Kishnah would quit popping her rat pups!!! BLECK!!!!!

[frankykeno]

Sam, welcome to BPNet and you are NOT a bad snake dad, just a new one that unfortunately found this forum after the purchase rather than before but it's workable...just a step by step, set priorities kind of thing.

That Acu-Rite will be invaluable to you. If you don't know what they look like just holler as I have a pic of one I can post for you. Put the actual unit (it requires an AAA battery) on the cool side, just stand it on the substrate, run the probe on it's long thin cord under the substrate and just tuck the probe right into your warm side hide. Push a few buttons on the Acu-Rite till you see IN TEMP, OUT TEMP and HUMIDITY. In Temp is now your cool side temp right at substrate level (where your snake lives after all), Out Temp is the actual warm temps inside the warm side hide (where your snake will spend his digesting time) and the overall humidity of the enclosure. You want to aim for 50-60% humidity other than during his shed times when you want to push it up around 70%. Temps should be about 80-84 cool side, 90-94 warm side...so you are looking for about a 10 degree difference to allow your snake to thermoregulate.

As far as hides you can make ones yourself from terracotta pots or the overflow water dishes from those pots, dog dishes, plastic cereal bowls, etc. What you are looking for is something that will be barely bigger than your snake when he's curled up...think small, very tight, very dark, very snuggly...this translates to safe, happy snake There's tons of threads in the husbandry section about hides and setups....simple is always best and easiest to keep clean.

As far as what to feed your bp....you can go with either mice or rats...both are perfectly fine BP prey sources...you just have to go with the appropriate size is all. You want a prey item that is no larger (slightly smaller is better) than the biggest girth of your snake. On a rodent you are looking at it's hips basically to compare as they are generally the widest part for the snake to swallow. A pinky mouse is way too small for even the youngest BP. If you are going with rats you probably want either a pinky (newborn), fuzzy (eyes still closed but has peachfuzz) or a pup (not yet weaned) rat, with mice likely a hopper (equivalent in development to a rat pup though much smaller) or young adult mouse (equivalent in size to a young rat pup). Just have a look at your BP's girth and if you need to measure it with a string and take that along to the pet store with you till you get good at eyeballing prey size.

Definitely have the snake checked and a fecal float/vent swab done. The regurge may well have been low temps/handling but it can also be something your vet needs to tend to so best to know up front if this is a perfectly healthy BP or not. Confirm with your own vet how long before you offer Ash another feeding but generally you need to skip a few feedings to allow him to heal from the regurge (snake's have very very strong stomach acids). I haven't had a regurge with our collection so best to ask your vet or some of the more experienced folks here that have actually dealt with this issue.

How big is Ash? How old? Do you know if he was captive born, captive hatched or wild caught?

Biggest thing now Sam is just to deal with your husbandry, get your temps and humidity bang on and stable and make sure Ash has fresh water, peace, quiet and his hides (as well as that vet visit). Everything else can be worked on step by step after those things are done. Handling will come in time and will be worth the wait I promise

PS If Ash knocks over the Acu-Rite you can velcro it to the tank, but please don't use any type of tape or sticky stuff as snakes caught up in that have been known to die struggling to get loose or get pretty badly messed up trying to pull themselves free.

[SamTLam]

Thanks so much, Joanna! I haven't really measured Ash, unfortunately, but I do remember comparing his last feeder mouse to where he's thickest, so based on that he has the girth of about a fuzzie. From my really rough guesstimate the last time I handled him, I would say he's about 1.5 feet.

He was captive hatched, and he's about two weeks old now. (From my understanding, when the store called me to tell me they had hatched new baby BPs, he was born middle of the week before Saturday the 13th, so he's a little over two weeks old.

Alright, I'll take care of the husbandry and be patient with everything else! I'm aiming to get his tank stabilized by the end of today (probably more realistically tomorrow, since I'll still have to see how the temps and humidity go tonight).

Thank you so much, everyone. I feel a little bit better, but I've got some work to do!

--Sam.

Addendum: Oh, and not to belabor the point, but I suppose I just need some affirmation: how does my new setup sound to people? To wit:
Two hides, one for hot end and one for cool end.
Hot end will be regulated by a UTH hooked up to a thermostat, and from above will have a heat lamp that I'll leave on all day (and I'll probably hook THAT up to my dimmer switch).
Cool end will be regulated by a second UTH hooked up to a second thermostat. The water dish will rest on top of this.

It seems I have no trouble getting certain sections of the tank hot so long as I have the heat lamp there, but every time I move the heat lamp, the OTHER end gets too cold. So I figure the new UTH + t-stat should solve the whole problem, so I have complete control over the whole tank. Then I can move the heat lamp to the hot end and just leave it there.

[SnakeySnakeSnake]

Just read the last post, if he is 2 weeks old and regurged I would definitely wait a week or two, and then offer a small small pinky, and see if he keeps that down.

If he is CH not CBB, then you have to consider the possibility of any sickness/parasites he may have from the old country. (if he is CH from there)